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[personal profile] sparr
Let's talk about tipping food service wait staff professionals. These are people you would typically call "waiter" or "waitress". I am going to systematically address every argument I have heard in favor of commonly advocated American tipping practices.

Before I start, I need to tell you that I give my waitress a larger tip than her average, on average. I tip more than most people in my party, most of the time. I am not a cheapskate. *I* am not the problem.

First, let's address the concept of exaggerated tipping "standards". Regardless of how you care to calculate your tip, people who advocate consistent tipping of almost any sort tend to suggest amounts that are higher than average. Ask your closest waiter friend how much they make in tips from an average customer. You can safely assume that almost anyone who tries to tell you how to tip will tell you to tip more than that. They are trying to make you, a possibly rational, likely generous, potential tipper, subsidize everyone else who tips poorly or not at all. My leanings toward socialism notwithstanding, I refuse to accept that I should subsidize another person's poor tipping. Anyone who says you should tip 20% is perpetuating this particular problem, since you can easily work out, or just poll your friends to find out, that most servers get an average tip closer to 10%. I am disinclined to listen to the arguments of people who do this, because they are starting out with a dishonest principle.

Next, I have to establish that I tip for service. My bellboy gets a tip based on how carefully and quickly he delivers my luggage to my room. My masseuse gets a tip based on how good the massage was. My pizza delivery guy gets a tip based on how well he follows my special instructions and whether he set the boxes on their sides or crushed them. And my waitress gets a tip based on how well she remembers my order, how often she lets my drink sit empty in the middle of my meal, how personable she is, and other factors related to how well she does her job (you know, that metric that dictates how much people get paid in a healthy free market).

A good waitress at Waffle House deserves a bigger tip than a bad waiter at Maggiano's. Tipping more or less is how you, as a customer, exert influence over the long term quality of service. Servers who get bigger tips will be encouraged to seek out more difficult tasks (hosting larger parties, etc). Servers who get smaller tips will be encouraged to improve or seek another line of work. If you give more money to worse servers, you are providing the wrong sort of feedback, and you are the reason the rest of us keep getting shitty service at expensive[1] restaurants!

Next, I send a big "fuck that noise" to percentage-based tipping. If you say a waiter analyzes his income based on percentages, I call shenanigans. For the same amount of work, a person who brings home $200 one day and $100 the next is going to make the obvious conclusion about which day was "better". If you think they will be happier on the $100 day because they got higher-percentage tips that day (despite getting a lot less of them) then I think you're deluded, and would be happy to take that extra $100 from the first day off your hands.

If you think that I should tip a certain way because "that's just the way it is", let me debunk that on as many levels as I can. First, "American style" tipping is specific to our country and a select few others. The vast majority of people in the world today don't use a percentage tipping system, or even "mandatory" (read: expected) tipping at all. Second, our system is relatively new. People who are alive today can remember when there was nothing like "the 15% rule" (or is it 18% or 20% these days? that's an even newer revision). If this isn't how we tipped 50 years ago, it's probably not how we will be tipping 50 years from now, and I enjoy being ahead of the curve. Third, I refuse to do ANYTHING just because it's how "everyone" else does it. Something something jump off a bridge something something? Fourth, not even everyone in America does it that way. I'm an obvious example of that, but the better example is everyone who doesn't tip, or who tips based on breast size or monetary need (bigger tips for the waitress with 4 kids to feed).

Now, many arguments can be made that the subjective level of service you receive at a more expensive restaurant is greater. As a whole, and based on thousands of experiences, I reject that notion based on my previous definition of "service". I do not typically see any better service in expensive restaurants than elsewhere. Ignoring that, I explicitly state that I neither want nor need the additional bits that make up that higher level of service. I do not need a waiter with a degree in food service. I do not need a waiter who is trained to suggest wines, or discuss culinary history with me. If I need those things, I will seek out the service of someone whose job title is not a synonym for "person who takes my order and brings me food and drink".

Another issue is that some wait staff are required to perform non-tip-generating duties. They may have to fold napkins, roll silverware, prep menus, or even do random bits of labor. That this is allowed to take place is a flaw in the design of our minimum wage statute[2], which you are welcome to address your thoughts on to your local legislator.

In closing, and to repeat myself, I need to tell you that I give my waitress a larger tip than her average, on average. I tip more than most people in my party, most of the time. I am not a cheapskate. *I* am not the problem. Despite having included this paragraph TWICE, at both ends of this post, I expect some replies will STILL call me cheap or insinuate that I do not tip well or often or enough.

[1] For the sake of this post, I am discussing the typical range of restaurant prices encountered by my friends (particularly of the LJ variety) on a regular basis. "cheap" is somewhere around $4 entrees and $6 meals, at places like Waffle House or Denny's. "expensive" is $20 entrees and $30+ meals, at places like Maggiano's and Ruth's Chris.
[2] Georgia has, afaik, the lowest state minimum wage in the country. It is one of a handful of states that do not improve on the federal laws in this regard. Almost every server in the country is earning more than $2.13 as their base wage.

Date: 2010-08-16 05:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
Part of a servers job is to figure out the needs of the table before them. If it's a table who wants you to take there order, fill there drinks and other wise be absent...that's what you do. If it's a table that wants you to describe each dish and suggest a beer or wine to go with it...that is what you do. All the extra knowledge you are required to learn at more expensive "higher quality" restaurants is just to arm you with the knowledge you need for the customers who do want that level of service. Servers who can't handle the basics (taking order, prompt food service and drink refills, secondary services) shouldn't be a candidate to work at the higher end restaurants.

Being able to upsell is a great way to make more money for yourself and the restaurant. These are the most valuable servers to the restaurant. The bill is what you base the tip off of...higher ticket average...higher tip. If you don't want to tip what's expected, don't eat there. If you got bad service, you shouldn't tip 20%. If the server satisfied your needs tip 15%-20%. If they were exceptional give them more. When I served I could honestly say my tip average was 15%-18%. Some 20%,some 10%, every once in awhile more or less, but it always seemed to average out at about 15%-18%. For every shitty table, you get a good one.

How you keep customers coming back is by giving them the type of service they want. If they like you, they are more likely to get that dessert or come back and get the expensive steak and ask for you. I will say that guests do appreciate when you go the extra mile and make that perfect pairing or suggestion. They DO tip more.

It's not the right thing to do, but when a server has to decide on how to prioritize the 10 million things they are doing at once on a busy night, a lot of servers will pick the higher ticket table if they are "in the weeds" and can't give equal service to all tables. In the long run, they make more money and make more money for the establishment. In the end it's all a number game.

A server will make more money serving a table drinking wine, eating a meal and having dessert then a table drinking water and eating a salad. So you should actually think of it this way. You are renting that table. You are taking up a spot where someone might have been drinking and eating a $20 steak. Not saying you should tip on your $30 bill as they would have on there $50 or $100, but it would be rude if they gave you good service to slight them just because you didn't need there wine knowledge. If they treat you shitty, by all means tip them adequately.

Date: 2010-08-16 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
Another note on renting the table...

If you are there 3 or 4 hours...TIP MORE...you are taking up a table they could be serving new guests at. Most of time drinking more water or coffee.

Date: 2010-08-16 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com
A dinner group I used to hang out with had a rule that even if you didn't order /anything/ you should kick in either $1 for every hour over 1 hour you were there.

Date: 2010-08-16 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com
How you keep customers coming back is by giving them the type of service they want. If they like you, they are more likely to get that dessert or come back and get the expensive steak and ask for you. I will say that guests do appreciate when you go the extra mile and make that perfect pairing or suggestion. They DO tip more.


My choice as to whther to get a more expensive entree or add a dessert or any of those things has never been influenced by how I feel about the server. I might gain a better feeling about the restaurant with attentive waitstaff, or give up on one after horrid service*. If I'm debating between a couple things and the server talks up the more expensive, maybe. I'll certainly tip a higher percentage when someone's been helpufl/attentive/fun, but it doesn't usually influence my order. Sie's better off upselling to the people who'll let her.



*e.g. Dave and Buster's one evening when the only service our table got was from folk we managed to flag down who weren't our MIA waiter; we made a point to separately tip the bar and ask the manager whether tips were pooled as we wanted it to go to the people who actually helped us. It was particularly impressive as he was so MIA as to not ask us about dessert (several of us probably would have ordered one) nor enquire as to whether folk would like more [Alcoholic!] drinks (and the answer would have been yes.)

Date: 2010-08-16 06:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
People are more likely to spend more money at places they enjoy and have good service. That is what I meant by being more likely to "get that dessert".

If you have a bad server, why spend that extra $6 on cake and have to tip on it or spend that time dealing with crappy service? If you are enjoying yourself...you may feel more inclined to indulge cause you feel you're getting your moneys worth.

Date: 2010-08-16 06:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com
hm.. You're dealing with someone who usually wouldn't get the cake, but I could see the difference being "want. out. now." vs "hey we're relaxed and we've got time so we might as well stay for that last course."

Like Sparr is perhaps saying (I'll admit I haven't really been able to parse quite what he's saying) the $1.20 tip on the $6 cake doesn't really come into the decision. If I really like the server I may add more to the cakeless tip, but I won't take on the extra $6 (and 600kcal) cake out of conscious loyalty to the server.

But I'm willing to believe that comfort/pleasant experience might lead someone more cake-ambivalent to order the cake.

Date: 2010-08-16 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
Servers who can't handle the basics (taking order, prompt food service and drink refills, secondary services) shouldn't be a candidate to work at the higher end restaurants.

This is the core of my point. Giving high tips to bad servers sends the wrong feedback. The amount of your tip communicates how well you think they performed those basics, in addition to any additional services. If you give a shitty server a 20% tip, why would they have any incentive to stop being a shitty server?

Not saying you should tip on your $30 bill as they would have on there $50 or $100

I tip exactly the same on either of those bills. On a salad or a steak, I am going to give the same tip for the same quality and level of service.

Date: 2010-08-16 08:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
I tip exactly the same on either of those bills. On a salad or a steak, I am going to give the same tip for the same quality and level of service.

I'm not sure what you tip, but do keep in mind tipping $6 on a $30 bill is not equal to $6 on say a $100 bill. Former case being a good tip, the ladder being a poor one. Almost all restaurants make servers tip out. Some of those tip outs are based on a percentage of there sales. The server tips out that percentage no matter what tips they received.

Plus higher bills do tend to equal more work.

This is just another reason why following the standard for tipping is the most fair way of showing your appreciation or dissatisfaction with your service.

My grandmother use to think it was OK to leave a dollar no matter what the bill. If someone left me a dollar I would end up paying to serve them after tip out.

Date: 2010-08-16 08:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
While I sympathize with the predicament of some servers in this situation, there is no way that I can know how bad your [pseudo]contract is.

See original post for rebuttal of "following the standard for tipping is the most fair way". The system you promote is neither fair nor standard.

Date: 2010-08-16 09:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com
Okay, what I'm seeing in this (these) conversations is either one person arguing theory and the other interpreting it as a suggestion as to how everybody should act (and being incorrect that this is the intent) or one person discussing the real consequences of a given strategy and the other person insisting that current reality has no business intruding on his Wa.


Your tipping algorithm, in a perfect world where perhaps everybody or a majority of people tip that way, might encourage the behavior you're trying to encourage. In the current world, servers get /taxed/ on an 18% assumption re cash. Or they pool their tips. Or they "tip out", whatever that is, which likely assumes an average amount.

In this case the Waffle House lady getting $10 on a $10 bill will likely be happy and grateful, but unless you include a note explaining your algorithm the $10 on a $100 bill for average service at Hard Rock will be interpreted as either "what did I do wrong?" or "that cheap schmuck.'
Edited Date: 2010-08-16 09:18 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-08-16 11:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
I agree that there has been mis-application of arguments. Some of the replies in this thread go off-topic.

Please be more precise, your "current world" is "current United States". I know, many folks tend to have tunnel vision on this issue, but realize that my tipping strategy is both common and welcome in a LOT of places.

Servers get taxed on what they report and/or what their employer records. In my experience, almost all of them under-report, but that's a different issue for a different day. If you are getting taxed on 18% despite getting less than 18%[1], one of is confused about what you mean by "get taxed on", and someone (who probably isn't you) is breaking the law.

[1] 18% is a hell of a good average tipping rate, more than anyone I know gets.

Date: 2010-08-17 04:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vvalkyri.livejournal.com

Please be more precise, your "current world" is "current United States". I know, many folks tend to have tunnel vision on this issue, but realize that my tipping strategy is both common and welcome in a LOT of places.


My apologies. I made the assumption that you spend most of your time in the United States. Based on some of your other posts that had seemed the case - I didn't realize that much of your con circuit is abroad.

Date: 2010-08-17 05:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
Well, I was oversimplifying... In a lot of the US waiters make $6/hr or $8/hr or more as their base salary (minimum wage) and tipping isn't nearly as socially-mandatory. I travel to those places a lot. I travel abroad not at all, but that has no bearing on the validity of the point.

Date: 2010-08-16 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
It's just the way it is. If you don't want to tip what is acceptable, don't go out to eat. Or expect any place you go and don't tip appropriately to treat you accordingly.

These standards are not there to subsidize poor tipping. If I were to ask you to do that I would say tip 25%-30% of the bill. 10% is not an acceptable tip for good service when dining out. It tells the sever they didn't do a good job or that you are cheap. Any server making an average of 10% is either working at the wrong place with cheap ass clientèle, or not a good server in the slightest.

I can tell you right now your example of the $200 vs $100 is not accurate. If it's a slow day, that does suck, but you know you'll make it up later in the week ect, that is one of the positives in the industry. Also, you and you boss will know you still did a good job if your tip percentage is high. Higher tips mean more customers satisfied meaning better shifts and sections for the server.

If someone made $100 making 10% tips, they have done twice the amount of work someone who made $100 making 20% tips. Could it be the 10% server sucks? Sure...or it could have been a bunch of people who A: don't understand what it is to work in the food service industry, or B: just a bunch of ass holes all day.

You are full aware of what servers make an hour. That is eaten up in taxes or insurance if the establishment provides those benefits. They live off of the tips. It's nowhere near the same as tossing a bellhop a couple dollars for taking care of you bags. Plus the bellhop doesn't have to deal with you for 30min -2hrs and gets a higher hourly rate.

Date: 2010-08-16 11:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
If you don't want to work for the tips you get, don't take a tip-based job. Or expect anyone to tip you according to how you treat and serve them.

The standard is obviously there to subsidize poor tipping. Does a server make 18%? If so, they make a lot more than any servers I know. If not, then suggesting an 18% tip is encouraging subsidy, since you are doing so knowing that someone else is going to tip less than the average.

I am not referring to a slow day. I am referring to the cost of meals. If you serve vegetarians all day, your %-based tips are going to be lower for the same amount of work and same level of service, and that's not fair to you. You, and others, keep confusing "higher tips" with "higher percentage tips". If one waiter makes $200/day and another makes $100/day, it doesn't matter what the %s are, the one making $200/day is going to have more money.

Or C: tipped for service, and the waiters level of service is not equivalent to how good his boss thinks he is as a waiter (see elsewhere in thread for alternate definitions of the quality of a waiter, including ability to upsell). Or D: only served vegetarians.

A bellhop makes the same $2.13/hr that a waiter makes. He has the same taxes and benefit costs deducted from his tips. He has to tip out to the lead bellhop, the guy who waves down taxis, and potentially the valet and concierge. His situation is effectively identical to a waiter, except he has far less time to do his job well or poorly and make a good or bad impression. Making inaccurate statements such as two of the three in your last paragraph detracts credibility from the rest of your arguments.

Date: 2010-08-17 12:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
I know plenty of servers who make more than 10%. As I said before, I averaged 15%-18% daily in tips from my total sales. So did most of my coworkers. Asking someone to tip that is asking for someone to tip average. Not an unfair request if you ask me. You obviously do not know good servers. They should find another job if they cannot average more than 10% tips.

I was unaware a bellhop made the same hourly rate a server did. This doesn't negate my other points. Just the one on the bellhop making more an hour if this is true. The bellhop comes into contact with more people with more chances to receive tips. They have less time to make an impression, sure, but they don't spend 30min to 2 hrs waiting on your party and surly are not expected to memorize a menu nor wine list.

You obviously do not see how giving the same tip on a $30 check as a $100 screws over server. Nor do you seem to care. Hopefully you stick to low end places where if you give a few bucks it's still a decent tip. You have never said what YOUR standard is! Is it 2 bucks for crappy service? 5 for good? 8 for great? Even at that if you bill is over $30/$40 your tip is poor to average. Maybe if you gave example of how you tip people would lay off you. You are lucky that not everyone feels the same way about tipping or every decent server would go find another job and leave your dining experience to the people who "can't read there own writing".

Date: 2010-08-17 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
As stated elsewhere in the comment tree, I tip on a scale based on the quality and level of service that I receive. The range is somewhere around $0-5, and maps pretty linearly to the potential range of service. This means I am a 50-100% tipper for great service at Waffle House, a 10-25% tipper for average service at Hard Rock, and a 0% tipper for abysmal service anywhere.

Date: 2010-08-17 01:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
Do you double it when you pay for someone else? Or are you always only paying for yourself?

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-08-17 01:18 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-08-17 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
On your average day, if you deal with 100 customers and they have $10 meals, and you average 18%, you should be bringing home $180 per day. I don't know any [other] servers who manage that on an average day, and I think 100 customers is a reasonable estimate and $10 is very conservative at most restaurants these days.

Date: 2010-08-17 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
LOL...

You are not going to serve 100 customers unless you work a double with no break on a busy day. Then actually you would make about $150-$250.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-08-17 01:16 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-08-17 01:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
The bellhop comes into contact with more people, and is tipped proportionally less on average. A bellhop spends 3-5 minutes on me, a server spends 15-20 minutes[1]. A bellhop gets a $0-2 tip, a server gets a $0-5 tip.

[1] A server who can handle three 4-tops who sit for two hours is only spending about 10 minutes on each customer, so my 15-20 is a very generous estimate.

Date: 2010-08-17 01:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
They might not actively be interacting with you...but they are watching your table and checking your food among other things. Not to mention. You are taking up space that no other customer take while you're there.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-08-17 01:22 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-08-17 01:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com
How is a server at all screwed over by me giving them the same tip for the same amount of time and work? If you fall back to the tip-out argument, I'll once again reply that this was a bad decision on their part, and is not even close to universal (some servers apparently tip out over 50%, while others tip out 10-20%, or nothing at all, and I have no way to know that).

Also, however much you say I am screwing them over, they are at least that much screwed over by someone who doesn't order an expensive meal. Are you going to bitch at someone for wasting your time by ordering a salad, or water instead of liquor, if you expect a % tip from them?

What the server-expectation argument boils down to is this question:
Would you rather have me tip you $5 on my $30 meal and $5 on my $10 meal (which is how I currently tip for great service), or $6 on my $30 meal and $2 on my $10 meal (which is a 20% tip)?

Date: 2010-08-17 01:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
Saying it's not your fault if servers have to tip out is a cop out. No it's not universal, but the places that do have high tip out, that server may very well end up PAYING for serving YOU.

When you tip out on sales, you don't get screwed over by the tip on a lower check if it's an adequate tip for the total bill. You just don't have as high of sales that day and don't make as much, but you're not screwed over.

As I've stated before...when you get great service tip more! Why not give 6 on that $30...or 5 on that $10 anyway. The guidelines are a minimum...it doesn't say you can't tip more. What if you bill is $50...you still going to give $5? That is not a good tip at all no matter how you look at it.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sparr0.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-08-17 02:00 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-08-17 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saxshooter.livejournal.com
Most of the time your tables are varied enough you do not get stuck only serving vegetarians or non-drinkers ect. So that argument is pretty irrelevant. How well you do depends on how busy it is and what section you have.

I brought these things up because they factor in how much a server makes. The happier you make your employer, the better sections you get. The better sections tend to make more money. As in total sales. The more you sell, the more chance you have of getting "higher tips" not to be confused by "higher percentage", though those go hand in hand in a lot of cases.

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Clarence "Sparr" Risher

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